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#326576 - 10/08/13 04:25 PM Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
The world would be a far better place if there was an orchid on every tree. With that in mind, I recently created a community on reddit for orchids on trees.

For those not familiar with reddit...it's a website where people can submit links and rate them up or down. It also makes it really easy to discuss each link. Reddit is an excellent resource for aggregating information.

I've already submitted a few of my favorite links. Please feel free to rate/discuss them and submit any other links that you feel are relevant to growing orchids on trees. As Linus's law states..."given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow". In this case, given enough eyeballs, we'll find all the easter eggs.

I also created a community for epiphytes if anybody is interested.

In order for there to be an orchid on every tree...we need epiphytic orchids to be more cold/drought tolerant than they already are. The problem is...most of you really don't want to know how cold/drought tolerant your orchids really are.

But if you really enjoy seeing orchids on trees...if you'd love to walk around your neighborhood and see orchids blooming on your neighbor's trees...if you'd love for orchid seeds to germinate on your trees...then I highly recommend selecting your orchids for drought/cold tolerance.

If everybody replaces their less tolerant orchids with more tolerant orchids...then the rate at which orchids become more tolerant will greatly increase. This will greatly decrease the amount of time before orchids can be grown on trees in Canada.

If you live in say Chicago, selecting for tolerance doesn't mean right off the bat leaving all your orchids outside year around...it simply means trying to trade for the epiphytic orchids that you can leave outside the longest. Invariably there will be casualties...but you can mitigate the damage simply by ensuring that you don't keep all your eggs in one basket. If an orchid is large enough...divide it and experiment with a division. If the division is less tolerant than most of your collection...then trade the surviving divisions for orchids that are more tolerant than most of your collection.

If you live in an area that requires orchids to be more eurythermal...then trade with people who live in areas that require orchids to be less eurythermal.

With that in mind...I have a few extra divisions of Cleisostoma scolopendrifolium. According to the Baker culture sheets...it's one of the most eurythermal epiphytic orchids. It might even be more eurythermal than Epidendrum conopseum. Not only is C. scolopendrifolium very eurythermal...but it might be the smallest monopodial orchid. I've never seen a smaller one.

Let me know if anybody is interested in trading. Initially I was primarily interested in cold tolerant orchids...but it just doesn't get cold enough here to really weed out the less cold tolerant orchids. Out of the 100s of epiphytic species of orchids I grow outside year around...I only lost one species when it finally got down to at least 32F. So now I'm primarily interested in acquiring drought tolerant epiphytic orchids.

I'm looking forward to seeing which photos of outstanding orchids on trees are your favorites!
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#326581 - 10/08/13 06:58 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Ursula Offline
heaven is a greenhouse

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 8123
Loc: Fair Lawn NJ USA

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#326583 - 10/08/13 07:43 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ursula]
Ed M Offline
OSF Platinum Member

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 20852
Loc: Nowheresville
Exactly, Ursula. Well played.

In addition, I don't think he has any squirrels.
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The genius of American politics is our ability to compromise. - Shelby Foote

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#326585 - 10/08/13 08:59 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ursula]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ursula

And this is relevant because you're a socialist?
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#326586 - 10/08/13 09:00 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ed M
Exactly, Ursula. Well played.

In addition, I don't think he has any squirrels.

Would you care to explain Lysenko's relevance?
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#326587 - 10/08/13 09:30 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Ed M Offline
OSF Platinum Member

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 20852
Loc: Nowheresville
If you read the Wiki article you would understand the relevance.
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Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin

The genius of American politics is our ability to compromise. - Shelby Foote

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#326588 - 10/08/13 09:36 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ed M
If you read the Wiki article you would understand the relevance.

I read the article which is why I don't understand the relevance. If you think it's relevant then substantiate your claim by sharing a relevant passage from the article.
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#326591 - 10/09/13 05:41 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Ursula Offline
heaven is a greenhouse

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 8123
Loc: Fair Lawn NJ USA
Follow the embedded link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_of_acquired_characters

"During the rule of Joseph Stalin in the USSR in the 1930s, the theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics was central to the dogma put forth by Trofim Lysenko, president of the Soviet Academy of Agricultural Sciences. Lysenkoism was advanced primarily in service to Soviet agriculture, always resulting in dismal failure."


Edited by Ursula (10/09/13 05:50 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#326593 - 10/09/13 06:41 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ursula]
dneafse Offline
OSF Member

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Boston, MA
I don't see how Carlos is suggesting that acquired characters could be inherited. I think he's saying that there's probably heritable natural variation within each species for cold tolerance, and that orchidists could impose artificial selection on that natural variation by pushing plants to their limit of cold-tolerance and identifying the most hardy plants for propagation.

I say, why bother? By the time that breeding program yields fruit, global warming will have already enabled epiphytic orchids to survive in climates like Vancouver. wink

-Dan

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#326594 - 10/09/13 06:44 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ursula]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ursula
Follow the embedded link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_of_acquired_characters

"During the rule of Joseph Stalin in the USSR in the 1930s, the theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics was central to the dogma put forth by Trofim Lysenko, president of the Soviet Academy of Agricultural Sciences. Lysenkoism was advanced primarily in service to Soviet agriculture, always resulting in dismal failure."

I thoroughly understand the concept. In order for it to be relevant...I would have had to argue in my thread that the offspring of orchids which were grown in insufficient light would inherit longer pseudobulbs and greener leaves from their parents. Except, I know I didn't argue anything even vaguely similar in my thread. Therefore, you don't understand the concept you linked to and/or you don't understand the process I described in my thread.
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#326595 - 10/09/13 07:00 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: dneafse]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: dneafse
I don't see how Carlos is suggesting that acquired characters could be inherited. I think he's saying that there's probably heritable natural variation within each species for cold tolerance, and that orchidists could impose artificial selection on that natural variation by pushing plants to their limit of cold-tolerance and identifying the most hardy plants for propagation.

Correct.

Originally Posted By: dneafse
I say, why bother? By the time that breeding program yields fruit, global warming will have already enabled epiphytic orchids to survive in climates like Vancouver. wink

-Dan

Hah. Well...we should bother because wherever the boundary line is...we can maximize our benefit by ensuring that the allocation of orchids is efficient. So we still have to identify which orchids are the most drought/cold tolerant...and then trade them accordingly. In other words, orchids should be distributed according to their comparative advantages. This will free up resources (energy for heating/cooling, water, etc) for more valuable uses.
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#326596 - 10/09/13 09:07 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Rich Offline
emphyein

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 20506
Loc: .....once Upon a Time
Orchids will still die on trees here in Chicago, unless you plan on pumping them full of a non-toxic anti-freeze 1st. rolleyes

poke Gene replacement therapy would be faster .

Oy! got to luv pseudo science, anything is possible. evilgrin
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#326601 - 10/09/13 10:21 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Rich]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Rich
Orchids will still die on trees here in Chicago, unless you plan on pumping them full of a non-toxic anti-freeze 1st. rolleyes

As I said in the OP...

Originally Posted By: Carlos
If you live in say Chicago, selecting for tolerance doesn't mean right off the bat leaving all your orchids outside year around...it simply means trying to trade for the epiphytic orchids that you can leave outside the longest.
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#326602 - 10/09/13 10:23 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Rich Offline
emphyein

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 20506
Loc: .....once Upon a Time
They'll still die rolleyes



RedForman.jpg


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#326603 - 10/09/13 10:27 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Rich]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Rich
They'll still die rolleyes

As I said in the OP...

Originally Posted By: Carlos
Invariably there will be casualties...but you can mitigate the damage simply by ensuring that you don't keep all your eggs in one basket. If an orchid is large enough...divide it and experiment with a division. If the division is less tolerant than most of your collection...then trade the surviving divisions for orchids that are more tolerant than most of your collection.
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#326622 - 10/09/13 08:27 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Ed M Offline
OSF Platinum Member

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 20852
Loc: Nowheresville
Quote:
In order for there to be an orchid on every tree...we need epiphytic orchids to be more cold/drought tolerant than they already are. The problem is...most of you really don't want to know how cold/drought tolerant your orchids really are.


Most of us probably do have some idea of how cold/drought tolerant our orchids are. Shall we test you to see how cold/drought tolerant you are? Sounds like lots of fun, doesn't it? In January we'll come and strip you naked and tie you to a tree for two weeks with no water or food. How do you think you will do at adapting?

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Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin

The genius of American politics is our ability to compromise. - Shelby Foote

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#326628 - 10/10/13 05:41 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Ursula Offline
heaven is a greenhouse

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 8123
Loc: Fair Lawn NJ USA
It will be a tough time for Carlos, but I am sure his children will have a much easier time with that. I imagine his children and definitely his grand- and grand- grandchildren playing naked in the snow without getting frostbites? Dancin smile

edited to add - you can only select for cold/drought tolerance to a certain point, then you will lose them, also consider growing seasons. And first of all, the chance that one in how many might have a genetic marker to withstand a Chicago/Canadian Winter is pretty small.


Edited by Ursula (10/10/13 09:23 AM)

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#326636 - 10/10/13 10:14 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Rich Offline
emphyein

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 20506
Loc: .....once Upon a Time
eh Ed, say we test LaLa Boy up in Fargo?
Seems only fitting. wink

Mother Nature has already run the test, which is why all native orchids in Zones 8 and lower are terrestrial.



fargo3.jpg


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#326643 - 10/10/13 02:16 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ed M
Most of us probably do have some idea of how cold/drought tolerant our orchids are. Shall we test you to see how cold/drought tolerant you are? Sounds like lots of fun, doesn't it? In January we'll come and strip you naked and tie you to a tree for two weeks with no water or food. How do you think you will do at adapting?

Let me attach two orchids to the same branch here. Markets work because people can choose for themselves how they allocate their resources. Here I am suggesting a particular allocation of your resources. And here you are responding with a suggestion of a particular allocation of my resources.

What's so great about markets is that you have the freedom to say "no thanks" to my suggestion and I have the freedom to say "no thanks" to your suggestion.

If somebody visits your collection and tells you that you need less floof and more species...then you can tell them "no thanks". If somebody visits my collection and tells me that I need less epiphytes and more terrestrials...then I can tell them "no thanks". Ain't it great?

Nobody prevented you from reading this thread. This is known as "easy entry". Nobody prevented you from replying to this thread and sharing your thoughts. This is known as "voice". And nobody will prevent you from leaving this discussion. This is known as "easy exit".

Even though I'm pretty certain your opinions are wrong, I would never force you to allocate your resources a certain way. Why? Because I can't ever be certain enough that I'm not wrong.

In this video a guy starts to ask Milton Friedman a hypothetical "If you were king for a day" question. Friedman quickly interrupts him and says with great emphasis..."If we can't persuade the public that it's desirable to do these things, then we have no right to impose them even if we had the power to do it."

If I can't persuade the public that there should be an orchid on every tree, then I have no right to force them to select for drought/temperature tolerance even if I had the power to do so.

There are logical consequences of your freedom to say "no thanks". Basically, it prevents your resources from being wasted on things that don't make any sense to you. Therefore, markets work because society's limited resources are used in ways that make the most sense to the most people.

Think about an orchid seed. There are certain allocations of resources that make more sense to an orchid seed. The more sense an allocation makes to an orchid seed...the greater the chances that it will germinate. Once it germinates...the more sense an allocation of resources (light, water, temperature, nutrients, drainage) makes to a seedling...the greater the chances that it will thrive.

Some combinations of resources will create more value than other combinations. As orchid growers we strive to determine which combination of resources will create the most value for us. We make mistakes...and we make important discoveries. We share our mistakes and valuable discoveries with others. And through this learning process we increase the amount of value we derive from our orchids.

Of course the idiots at the AOS completely failed to understand this concept...which is why they didn't make it a priority to digitize and share all the articles with the orchid growing community. They hinder progress...which is why they should be boycotted.

If you think I'm hindering your progress...then please enjoy your freedom to boycott me. Don't take it for granted though. If you can actually think things through...then you'll realize that you should have exactly the same freedom in the public sector. Just like you should have the freedom to choose which orchids you put in your greenhouse...you should have the freedom to choose which government organizations you give your taxes to. Just like you select the inputs that you believe your orchids need to thrive...in the public sector you'll select the inputs that you believe our society needs to thrive. The more people we have participating in the process...the more valuable discoveries will make.
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#326645 - 10/10/13 03:10 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ursula]
Carlos Offline
OSF Gold Member

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 356
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Ursula
It will be a tough time for Carlos, but I am sure his children will have a much easier time with that. I imagine his children and definitely his grand- and grand- grandchildren playing naked in the snow without getting frostbites? Dancin smile

edited to add - you can only select for cold/drought tolerance to a certain point, then you will lose them, also consider growing seasons. And first of all, the chance that one in how many might have a genetic marker to withstand a Chicago/Canadian Winter is pretty small.

Out of 30,000 orchids species...with around 20,000 epiphytic species...there's going to be one epiphytic species that can survive outside in Chicago the longest. We'll call it "Species X".

Species X has a combination of traits (inputs) that make it the most suited to growing outdoors in Chicago. Except, what are the chances that Species X has the best combination of traits? Out of all the possible traits...it seems highly likely that there's one other species that we could cross Species X with in order to come up with a better combination of traits.

So...it would look something like this...

Species XY > Species X > Species Y

It's impossible to say what the actual numbers would be. But in order to conceptualize things...

180 days > 160 days > 150 days

In nature, the combination of inputs is pretty random. Bees just care about honey. But even though this combination of inputs is random, epiphytic orchids have ended up in some incredibly diverse climates. This is because orchids are the best at playing the numbers game. Each seed pod can contain a million unique little bastards. Each little seed has its own unique combination of inputs. Given that they don't carry any baggage...they can travel great distances and end up in very different climates. Trillions of unique combinations of inputs...widely dispersed...results in a lot of selection going on.

In my OP I basically suggested that we play the numbers game too. One orchid grower in Chicago can only try so so many different input combinations. He can only do so much selection. The more orchid growers that participate in the selection process...the more progress that can be made.

I know that progress can be made because orchids, just like humans, didn't just automatically pop up all over the world. Orchids started in one place and through a process of natural selection they managed to colonize a good chunk of the planet. I'm guessing that terrestrial orchids probably got a good head start on epiphytic orchids. But we can greatly facilitate the colonization of epiphytic orchids simply by playing the numbers game.

The process is extremely simple. We keep track of how many days an orchid can survive outside. Then we engage in artificial selection.

The greater the demand there is for orchids that can survive outside longer...the greater the incentive there will be for growers to select for tolerance. We can make a contest out of it. There will be prestige and money to be had for the first person who can come up with the combination of inputs that will allow an epiphytic orchid to survive outside year around in Chicago.

But if you're not curious enough to participate in this process...then of course you're free to do other things with your limited resources. When you choose x rather than y...please understand that you're choosing x because you perceive it will create more value for you than y. Resources can't be put to their most valuable uses if you aren't free to decide which option will create the most value for you. This is true whether we're talking about the private sector or the public sector.
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#326657 - 10/10/13 07:33 PM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Carlos]
Ed M Offline
OSF Platinum Member

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 20852
Loc: Nowheresville
Originally Posted By: Carlos
If somebody visits your collection and tells you that you need less floof and more species...then you can tell them "no thanks". If somebody visits my collection and tells me that I need less epiphytes and more terrestrials...then I can tell them "no thanks". Ain't it great?


No. You tell them it's none of their f-ing business and don't come back. wink

Your idea was fine until you brought up epiphytic orchids outdoors during the winter in Chicago and Canada. Carlos, there are no epiphytic plants of any kind (except a few mosses) in Chicago or Canada because not only can they not survive but even after millions of years of evolution they are unable to adapt. This is true world-wide for all areas which experience long seasons of hard freezing...lichens, a few mosses, and a few ferns. Here in the eastern US we have one epiphyte, a fern, which can grow in semi-hard-frost areas, Pleopeltis polypodioides, the Resurrection Fern, which routinely loses about 97% of its water content in order to surive the dry and cold conditions. Orchids adapt to these areas by going to ground and going dormant, not by evolving epiphytic survival methods. We take our cues from Nature, Carlos. If it were possible, nature would have done it already.

BTW, have you tried growing Euchile (Epi.) mariae outdoors in your area? It grows natively just a few hundred miles south of you in Mexico. It grows only at the base of large oak trees. See if this one will survive for you.
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Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin

The genius of American politics is our ability to compromise. - Shelby Foote

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#326662 - 10/11/13 06:20 AM Re: Photos of Outstanding Orchids on Trees - Reddit [Re: Ed M]
Rich Offline
emphyein

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 20506
Loc: .....once Upon a Time
Ed, as proven in the past,
All the hammers in the world ain't going to pound sense into this boy crazy


Oh and for your example, yes it can take the occasional predawn hard frost or two, spaced well apart
,,,, and given rapid early day time heating to ambient range.
(Well leave residue heat and moisture levels of surrounding materials in their micro-climates out it for now, and if the orchid in question actual obtained 32F)
Some of it's similarly native ranged Laelia can also take a hit or two
.
But that's far different from several days in a row of hard freezes, let alone a whole season of such temps. rolleyes
sleeping Trust us Carlos, we've been there done that, (given the graces of Michi-Anna), but you're full of it.
stupid


Edited by Rich (10/11/13 06:28 AM)
Edit Reason: Prove it boy and we'll add a "sh" to the last word.
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