The Orchid Source - Orchid Forum

Friends, orchids are just part of the life of those who visit here...there are many more additional things we treasure and it is good to have a place to share other things. As long as the people are "nice" to each other, it is OK for me. We do make mistakes here and there and it should not be any great deal if we treated the others as our friends.At the end of the day, it is the friendship we value...

This orchid forum is not all about orchids and that is why i am here. There are so many benefits we could get here.
Just give you an example, a forumnite from oversea got to know me through OSF, she visited me and suzy twice already and we were able to share so much during her visits (at least we contribute to some of the activities in her plan). Isnt that one of the benefits of this forum?...i dont follow too much in how others grow their orchids because i know that even in their native climate, the same plant behaves differently because of the micro climate and condition in each place. In fact i only find out whether the plants are from the highlands or lowlands.. I stay away from those highland species (even if i am dying to have one) because i live in the lowland. Most of the thing I learn through common sense.

I stayed here even when i got whacked before.. cos i treasure this forum (the only orchid forum i joined). I am no expert in orchids and i have difficulty writing about their culture preferences. That is why every time i post a species, i tried to make up with different angle shots as well as a full plant shot. I hope by during that i could at the very least contribute something tangible..

Not posting much these days because i am very busy with work..meaning, nothing interesting happened for a long time already..sigh:( .. hopefully i could catch up with more posts in the near future...

Getting ready for chinese new year next week!!!...thinking about the terrified dogs in my house because of the crackers!!! (the sky bombs which shook even the house when fired)..sorry for the messy train of thoughts

Chris-MD, sure there are always exceptions. When a friend of mine wanted to learn how to snowboard we took him to the double black diamond slopes and he spent most of the day falling down the mountain...he stuck it out though and picked it up faster than he probably would have on the bunny slopes. However, the large majority of people are going to want to learn on the bunny slopes. The only reasons advanced snowboarders are going to be on the bunny slopes is either if they are trying to help a friend learn to snowboard or they are getting paid to instruct.

With societies, if a topic is too advanced you can see the eyes of the beginners glaze over and if a topic is too basic you can see the eyes of the more advanced growers glaze over from boredom. Certainly nobody is stopping beginners from posting here...although, having to have your account verified is certainly a barrier to entry when compared to other forums.

Ricardo, when you say popular I can't help but think of McDonalds, Britney Spears and reality TV shows. Is popularity really the best goal for an orchid forum? For forums that are ad based, becoming popular is certainly good for the owner of that forum. Personally, I would rather participate in an orchid forum that effectively meets my information needs. The point of posting the links to my Magcloud thread was to demonstrate that even though the other forum is more popular, there were absolutely no responses to my post...while the same exact post on this forum resulted in an informative discussion.

So, when you ask what elements of a forum make it popular...how can I answer that it offers good information? If you had asked, what elements do I expect from a forum...then I could have answered good information and little censorship.

Out of curiosity...how would you rate the average level of membership of this forum...beginner, intermediate, advanced or expert? So we are on the same page I would define a beginner as somebody who has just purchased their first orchid and an expert as somebody who has published a book or two on orchids...or at least could publish a book if they so choose to.

[quote=Carlos]
Ricardo, when you say popular I can't help but think of McDonalds, Britney Spears and reality TV shows. Is popularity really the best goal for an orchid forum?[/quote=Carlos]

Yes

Popularity helps a forum survive by bringing in revenues. It also makes it easier to find for the newbies. I assures a variety of opinions and points of view. People are gregarious and certainly prefer a forum where there are may postings on a variety of themes to one that has one or two a day that deal with the appearance of a new green root tip and what does that means in the greater scheme of things. And it it from those newbies that the future experts will come. In a sense this forum is like one of those great whales that has to filter an enormous amount of water to harvest the krill it needs for sustenance. Starting an expert forum from scratch is like the whale counting of finding an extremely huge and fat krill every time it opens its mouth. As for Mc Donalds, it is wonderful when you need to grab a bite on the run. Britney Spears has gotten rich being a hot mess and certainly is easy on the eye. Lastly the bizarre awfulness of reality TV is such that nobody could get away from writing fiction like that because fiction has to make sense, so it has an hypnotic quality that accounts for its huge popularity in spite of being, at times impressively cringe worthy.

Lastly I think that a discussion on the level of expertise of the members of this forum will distract from the main theme of this thread. Perhaps you could start a thread on this issue and see where it goes.

By your own analogy, you're inferring advanced growers are going to stay in the advanced forum, and beginners on the beginner forum. Again, this inhibits free-flow of information, promotes misinformation and disinformation among those segregated newbies, and stifles diversity, the true gem of forums.



But you still have an advanced person interacting with a beginner. By your forum design, that wouldn't happen. By your design, how will newbies learn if they are segregated from those who know??

Ah - sports analogies. When I played tennis, I was always encouraged to "play up" - really forced one to get better quickly.

Most forums seem to have a beginner section anyway. It does provide an avenue for new growers to ask simple questions but I think such a division serves more as a stepping stone into typical forum discussion rather than encouraging a greater knowledgebase to the forum. I don't see the level of discussion on forums such as OB, which does have an advanced section, differing too much from GW, which doesn't.

Attractiveness to beginners will make any forum popular but eventually beginners become advanced, the advanced reach a point where they have no-one higher up the knowledge heirachy to talk to so they talk amongst themselves. Cliques form, people clash, the information stream lapses, the newbies stop coming, someone gets sick of the format and/or the mod's attempts to calm things down and starts a new forum, taking half the forum with them. The newbies then flock to that forum and everyone makes a fresh start at imploding the new forum. It's happened at all of the other forums and no doubt it will happen at the 2 current top players if you give them time. If you want a temporary moment in the sun find a popular orchid forum, let it to implode and drag the survivors to your new forum with promises of a wonderland where everyone is nice and we can all post pictures of kittens. If you want sustained popuarity, maybe we need to figure out why orchid forums have such a limited lifespan. Orchid societies can wax and wain in membership, longtime members get annoyed and leave and new societies can form to meet the needs of subgroups of members but generally societies have much more longevity than any orchid forum. Is it the comparative level and expertise in orchid societies, where growers feel they can always advance their hobby? Is it the personal interaction, where people feel they're encouraging a new grower rather than being plugged for advice that they probably won't take? Is the fact that paying for membership gets rid of the fly by nighters? Is it the greater loyalty you show to an orchid society compared to a forum? I have no idea which if any apply but surely their is something that the online orchid community can learn from the offline orchid community.

Ricardo, there already is a popular forum with nearly 1000 fans on facebook. Are you a member? Regarding the level of members...a thread doesn't need to be started to figure out that the majority of the members here are intermediate to advanced growers.

Chris_MD, here's one variation on a theme... Step 1: Beginner A posts a question about phal root rot. Step 2: Beginner B looks in their Ortho Orchid Book and posts the answer and recommends the book to Beginner A

Andrew, so far only Rainforest has used the word "value" in this discussion but doesn't value have significant relevance to the success of a society or forum? I recently organized a group purchase opportunity to receive up to 30% discount on quality orchids from Floralia and so far not a single person from my society has shown any interest in participating. Only my plant friends have selected orchids to order. Personally, I'd prefer to belong to a society where the majority of members had some interest in receiving a 30% discount from a respectable orchid nursery...in other words...a society with a higher percentage of shared values

This is a generalization but I think of the other orchid forums as primarily consisting of trader joes and big box store orchid hobbyists while I think of this forum as primarily consisting of Andy's Orchids, SBOE and Floralia orchid hobbyists. Given that there's already a great forum catering to the former, I don't see any value in trying to attract big box store orchid hobbyists. However, I would chip in $5 for this forum to be advertised on the homepage of Andy's or SBOE.

Carlos, your posts are really starting to sound like a sales pitch for that other "Popular" forum with 1000 friends on Facebook. Facebook is a great place if you like to give hackers someplace to install malware & viruses on your computer -

Carlos, should I just direct link our new to Orchids forum to that popular site w/1000 Facebook fans? I'm sure they would direct link their intermediate/advanced growing questions over here. The possible synergy just delights the imagination.

Not fair. Everyone has to start somewhere. It's a learning curve. What people learn or choose not to learn after purchasing there is up to them. But being part of conversations here, even just reading or looking at pictures, can encourage a big box person desire to try other things. Or not. And the realization that there are orchids societies and orchid greenhouses, maybe in their area, where their interest can be piqued even further. And - books are invaluable. They just are. I still use my Taylor's book all the time.

I bought my first orchid over thirty years ago from White Flower Farm ( actually two - 1 white and 1 pink phal ) - and I've been soldiering onward every since.

Right, Jojo! I started with a Den and a Phal (still have this) from Lowes 9 years ago, and have graduated to Andy's/Oak Hill/SBOE (granted, never ordered from SBOE). Its a starting point, not a demeaning stigma.

Heh...on one hand Woola feels I'm promoting a forum for big box orchid hobbyists and on the complete opposite extreme jojo feels I'm insulting big box orchid hobbyists. sheesh-ka-bob.

My point is this forum is more like college and the other forum is more like high school. There's nothing wrong with high schoolers...but it's nice to have a place where the courses are more advanced. There are certainly advantages for the high schoolers attending college but I don't see any advantages for the college students. Much in the same way if Phillip Cribb participated in this forum...we would benefit but he probably wouldn't.

Of course there are! Some of these high school kids can really shake up a class and give those college kids a run for their money. They REALLY want to be there, while those college kids might just be taking the class as a requirement and could care less. Makes them take things a little more seriously, that's for sure.

I didn't say insulting. Rather - give people a break. And like I said - it's a learning curve. If they really aren't all that interested after a while they'll quit anyways.

Dude, don't even try and put words in my mouth. I've said nothing about big boxes or other wise. You are shilling for another Orchid forum and I know which one it is. You are alluding to the fact that people new to Orchids would be better served at a different forum (which is so popular & has 1000 face book fan's "Are you a member" etc etc) which couldnt be further from the truth. Give it a rest...

I use Facebook for work and to contact friends, not for getting into other groups orchids or otherwise, there are just too many viruses disguised as "applications" such as "Read today's advice to you from the crazy sausage". I delete any such obnoxious posts but many people like them. I enjoy the OSF too much and prefer to post here. Andrews post has much to chew on but I find his analysis a bit too deterministic. The Internet is littered with the bones of rebel leaders that thought that just because a forum was new, and was graced with their marvellous, incredibly knowledgeable selves people would flock to it. It is good to have a variety of choices but that doesn't mean new choices are inherently good or superior to old ones, probably they are just different.

Dude, I'm not putting any words in your mouth....you accused me of "shilling" the popular = big box orchids = beginner forum. Can you please point out all the beginners here that I'm "shilling" it to? The only thing you've contributed to this discussion is your insecurity that the 1 or 2 beginners here are going to flock over in droves to the popular forum...based entirely on my amazing powers of persuasion. Oh, and you've also contributed the priceless insight that facebook gives us malware.

I value this forum enough to have donated $100 not because of the user unfriendly layout, but because A. I value the high percentage of intermediate to advanced members who are willing to share what they know and B. I valued being able to link to any other orchid forum without having to worry about an insecure admin deleting my post (oh noes, another orchid forum has useful info!!).

Way to side step. Are you saying that nobody has had their accounts on Facebook highjacked and been used to spread malware and viruses?

What percentage of facebook users who don't grant farmville and similar applications access to their account info have had their accounts hijacked? Is the percentage any higher than on twitter, myspace, AIM, yahoo or any other e-mail application?

The moral of that story is not to grant those annoying applications access to your account. The point of which is only so tenuously related to the topic of this thread. Let's see if I can bring it back...

If the goal is popularity, then perhaps it might be helpful if this forum had it's own fan page on facebook....just like more and more orchid societies are doing.

heh, ok... carry on.

For anyone that would like the facts of how Facebook attracts hackers like flys to poo Google these terms -

Facebook malware
Facebook malware 2009
Facebook malware 2010
Facebook account hijacking
Facebook virus
Facebook hacked

Ricardo,
I tried to steer my last post away from discussing information quality too much and back on to popularity but I think the two are related. If popularity = bums on seats, I guess you can either cast a broader net to attract more new growers or find more seats for experienced growers to move into so that the current influx of beginners have some where to sit. I think forums tend to do the former well; acting, as JoJo kind of eluded to, a platform between the first orchid and orchid society involvement but that could also be why popularity is so transient in orchid forums. Somehow encouraging a mentor-base at all levels, so that people can grow with a forum rather than out grow it, would seem to be harder to achieve but wouldn't this provide sustained popularity in the long run - like an online orchid society. Granted the forum may not get the visitor-rate of a forum that grabs as much of the new grower market as possible but it would have a better chance of being around in 10 years time. To be realistic, maybe we need to wait another 20 years until the next generation of experts aren't as web-phobic for this to be feasible.



I don't think there is a problem with catering for both the current Trader Joes and the Andy's crowds (I think you may be doing many people on this forum a disservice in relegating them to that level). If people can't readily interact with people at more advanced levels of experience, how are they going to learn. What I'm wondering is how to do the exact opposite of what you suggest. How do you create a forum that is interesting and accessible for both the Trader Joes and the Andy's crowds but is also of interest to those of higher levels of expertise. The New Horizon forum for example, though light in traffic, is a step up from your concept of "Andy's Orchids" level discussion yet it's still an interesting read even for the average person mildly into Cyms (and even an indigenous orchid bigot like myself, who would probably throw out the few token exotic Cyms I own if my wife would let me ). Why does the internet seem favour this kind of isolation of differing experience levels as though we accept that people will grow out of a forum?



Yes, but if there's enough college students, they can talk amongst themselves while the highschool students learn from them. Occassionally you also get a less experienced grower who makes you think about the dogma you've taken for granted. Maybe I'm an odd one out in this and other forums; I don't read forums for the chit-chat, back-patting or the photo's - be they orchids or kittens. I read them to see what other people are doing with their orchids to see if I can improve what I'm doing. Sure I could stay off the forums and get locally relevant info from the local experts but sometimes it pays to know what people outside your circle are doing. Hopefully by looking at what others do, saying what I do and having people criticise what I do, I can gain some insight into where I can look into changing my habits. I don't begrudge interaction with less experienced growers. In my meager 15 years of orchid growing I know I haven't even scratched the surface of what I need to know to consider myself as having any significant orchid expertise. If I want to learn, why shouldn't they want the same thing?

Re: the Phil Cribb comment, the Geyserland name is entrenched in the Cym community yet Mr Cym seems quite willing to grace the shores of OSF. Maybe you could ask him why a lecturer would want to talk to the so called college students?

Back to popularity, to Woola's credit, I think that he has maintained a forum membership that's probably a similar demographic to 70% of the membership of the average OS. Sure it may not be raking in the members like the two big ones but OSF has been around for a while, ridden the popularity roller coaster and has probably come out in much better shape than some of the forums that were on the same ride. Makes me feel guilty that most of the orchid related posts are on topics that I don't have a lot to contribute to. Still it's a good read.

I think this forum is well-balanced and allows everyone a fair shake. If you are a beginner, I find the comments are helpful and welcoming and if you are more advanced and spouting incorrect information, you may be corrected or at least challenged. Without OSF, you can be sure the serious problems at AOS would never be aired yet the AOS supporters get a fair turn on this soapbox also. Even the various non-orchid discussions have a good give and take and everybody gets to air their opinions. If it is political discussion you may need a thick skin but so be it!

If Cribb posted here we might learn from him, of course. Dare I suggest, he might learn from us. Taxonomists can be the most narrow-minded (some would call them focused) people and it would not hurt for them to hear how little respect many of them have among serious orchidists. I immediately add that Eric Christenson is the most competent taxonomist I have ever encountered in orchids although like me, he can be testy at times!

Andrew, I think the information component can be broken down into three factors...accuracy, relevance and accessibility. The problem with your ideal scenario of a forum appealing to both beginners and advanced growers is that advanced topics would quickly be buried under an avalanche of beginner topics. The more phal root rot threads there are...the less likely it is that you will notice my post on Plectorrhiza tridentata. In essence you end up with a sort of tyranny of the majority.

The Google keyword tool can be used to roughly measure the popularity of some orchid genera...

Global Monthly Search Volume
Phalaenopsis: 368,000
Dendrobium: 246,000
Cattleya: 201,000
Encyclia: 18,100
Sarcochilus: 3,600
Plectorrhiza: 140

Earlier in the thread Ricardo mentioned the possibility of there eventually being numerous specialized orchid forums. With sites such as Flickr and Facebook it's easy to start a specialized forum by creating a group/page. For example, the Phalaenopsis group on flickr has 809 members. However, on flickr the discussion is primarily centered around photography and not so much on culture.

Orchid societies have been fairly rapidly creating facebook pages/groups...and by default forums for their society. In March 2009 there were 3 orchid societies with facebook pages and now, less than a year later, there are at least a couple dozen with facebook pages. The New Hampshire Orchid Society has by far the most fans (85) but they have yet to utilize their discussion section.

Even despite any future widespread decentralization of orchid discussion, RSS still ensures easy accessibility of information.